Suppressors - Am I missing something

Discussion in 'Firearms, Optics and Accessories' started by mikee, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. mikee

    mikee Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whilst I have suppressors for most of my rifles am might be missing something
    Reading the Rod and Rifle Suppressor Testing article at least1l "manufacturer" made mention of the fact their unit included an effective integral muzzle brake.

    How would this work given its inside the suppressor and although it is possibly directing gas but to where? surely it would ll be caught by the suppressor which would prevent it behaving in the usual way a brake would. Would it just be the xtra weight of the brake causing the recoil reduction??
     
  2. R93

    R93 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,700
    Likes Received:
    0
    I dont know the answers but know all my suppressors have an internal break of sorts.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  3. veitnamcam

    veitnamcam Almost literate.

    Messages:
    16,325
    Likes Received:
    0
    It could possibly aid felt recoil reduction by spreading the recoil over a longer period as a suppressor does anyway.

    To reduce the actual recoil it would have to direct gas away from centerline (like a brake does) BUT being enclosed in a suppressor all gas would exit froward as per usual?
     
  4. quentin

    quentin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would have thought that the internals of most suppressors act and look like a muzzle brake, albeit an inefficient one. This is why they have a noticeable recoil reduction effect.
     
  5. Cordite

    Cordite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    Basic physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

    1.- Bullet pushed forwards, gun goes backwards.

    2. - Fast gases forwards, gun goes backwards (think rocket). No. 1. is easy to understand, but the fact is that "gas has mass", and it escapes a gun at very high velocity!

    3. - Fast gases enter a suppressor and are slowed, cooled (read: de-expanded) and released more slowly forwards, gun pushed more gently backwards. All suppressors lessen and soften recoil in this way.

    4. - Fast gases are diverted sidewards, gun not pushed backwards or forwards(muzzle brake).

    5. - Fast gases actually directed more rearwards, gun actually pushed forwards (rearward deflecting muzzle brake). [NB the effect of "1." still applies.]

    Interesting case studies:

    - With a flat crown barrel, a fair amount of the escaping gases exit at 90degrees and so do not contribute to recoil.

    - Lee Enfield no 5 Jungle carbine, has a rocket nozzle shaped flash hider / muzzle shroud and so even naturally sidewards escaping gases get directed forwards... and thus much greater recoil is felt than when the flash hider is not attached. Not ideal for a very light rifle, but again, in addition to being an effective flash hider it also directs much of the blast away from shooters' ears.

    Hope that is helpful.
     
  6. Ryan_Songhurst

    Ryan_Songhurst Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,948
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is one of those things that frys my brain, like thinking about if you are driving along in a car and you hold a ball out in front of you and drop it, why doesn't the ball hit you in the chest?
     
  7. Cordite

    Cordite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    @vietnamcam,
    Yes, but remember the suppressor also cools the escaping gases before releasing them, thus contracting them and reducing pressure. Thus (in addition to slowly releasing gases forwards and thereby softening recoil), suppressors also lessen recoil.
     
  8. Cordite

    Cordite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    [MENTION=5539]Ryan_Songhurst[/MENTION],
    It might if you are facing forwards and it is a sports car. Try it with a large beach ball.
     
  9. Cordite

    Cordite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    Muhchausen's Pigtail Suppressor with Integral Muzzle Brake.

    Thinking... why not have a rearward deflecting muzzle brake and have it enclosed in a can? Sell it as an integral muzzle brake suppressor.

    The gases, as escaping from the barrel would initially be directed backwards in the can.... No, really! Sounds like Baron von Munchausen pulling himself up out of the swamp.

    View attachment 76188
     
  10. veitnamcam

    veitnamcam Almost literate.

    Messages:
    16,325
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is exactly what is being discussed is it not?
     
  11. veitnamcam

    veitnamcam Almost literate.

    Messages:
    16,325
    Likes Received:
    0
    True tho I believe this effect is very small untill shown scientific peer reveiwed data showing otherwise.
    The expansion of gasses cool and contract them of course as per how we keep our beer and steak cool, and the suppressor is a radiator of sorts as seen by the mirage when using one for multiple shots but my gut feel is it is on its own not a significant source of recoil reduction.
    Happy to be proved otherwise tho.
     
  12. Spudattack

    Spudattack Numzane

    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Depends if you are accelerating or braking, the opposite actually happens to what you think.

    Try it with a helium balloon in the car.

    If you accelerate you would think that the balloon would go backwards, but it doesn't, it comes forwards.
    Reason is that when you accelerate the air in the car is pushed to the rear and therefore is more dense at the back of the car than the front, so the balloon moves towards the less dense air.

    The opposite happens when you brake, the balloon moves to the rear as the air collects in the front.

    At constant velocity the ball would fall as if you were still as you are all moving as one unit, including the air in the car.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  13. Cordite

    Cordite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    [MENTION=71]veitnamcam[/MENTION],
    Yes, agree will be a small effect as metals have quite low heat capacity, esp after a couple of shots. If you have wet steel wool in a silencer however, there will be quite a high heat absorbing capacity, but again, just for the first few shots.
     
  14. Cordite

    Cordite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    [MENTION=71]veitnamcam[/MENTION]

    I suppose it is. Let us see,

    (A) gun pulled forwards as gases are spit backwards inside the can.
    (B) gases slam into back of can and the opposite effect is obtained, cancelling out the first effect in flash.

    Yes, that pig tail is taking a lot of strain.
     
  15. mikee

    mikee Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would not the wright of the suppressor which effectively increases the total weight of the mass have more effect on softening the recoil. I just don't understand how gasses enclosed in a "can" which have no way to work in the same way as a brake (i'll call it the rocket effect) can reduce recoil on their own. I always assumed brakes effectively direct the gas in a direction which pull the gun f ward against recoil force.
     
  16. veitnamcam

    veitnamcam Almost literate.

    Messages:
    16,325
    Likes Received:
    0
    In short Yes.
    But in long a suppressor can reduce actual recoil to a small/theoretical extent by the lessening of pressure/expansion of gasses/cooling and the fact that energy is E=MC2 so if you reduce the velocity of gas out the front(because it has expanded and cooled) you reduce recoil....however...
    Most if the FELT recoil reduction of suppresors is due to the increase in time the recoil is spread over and the increase in weight(also slowing the recoil pulse)
     
  17. 300CALMAN

    300CALMAN MIA somewhere in Nam

    Messages:
    2,341
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can't see how a break is going to behave much different to the baffles. This may not answer our question but it's very interesting..

    [video=youtube;7pOXunRYJIw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOXunRYJIw[/video]
     
  18. veitnamcam

    veitnamcam Almost literate.

    Messages:
    16,325
    Likes Received:
    0
    recoil is a function of the weight of the bullet and the weight of the powder/primergasses.
    over simplifyed if they all go out the front(like most suppressors) then total recoil is the same (over simplifyed)
    if the high pressure gasses are ejected at 90degree to the bore then their net effect on recoil is gone.
    if those high pressure gasses start being directed rearward they then start to counteract the recoil of the weight of the projectile.
     
  19. 300CALMAN

    300CALMAN MIA somewhere in Nam

    Messages:
    2,341
    Likes Received:
    0
    [video=youtube;v7fqcYxV_b4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7fqcYxV_b4[/video]

    This is also interesting if you skip to 2 min.
     
  20. 300CALMAN

    300CALMAN MIA somewhere in Nam

    Messages:
    2,341
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that if you slow the gas down you reduce it's energy and felt recoil. Sending it backward is F***** annoying!
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017

Share This Page